Fifty percent of something is better than a hundred percent of nothing.
Introduction
Well, I think it’s going to be one of those (really) slow weeks on the recommendations front - at least when it comes to actual watches, there are quite a few boxes up for grabs though - but fear not, because we have some very interesting dodgy listings this week that deserve some attention, including one in particular which I fear is going to fool a lot of people.
There is also one heck of a “it’s not a vintage Grand Seiko, but I like it” (that is actually about as close as you can get to being a vintage GS, yet isn’t), and I’ve dropped in a couple more in that section this week to make up for the paucity of recommended watches from the regular listings.
Sean Boswell
Inner box for the first Grand Seiko
People continue to pay high prices for boxes, and that’s bringing more of them to the market. Demand is very much outstripping supply though of course, and I expect good money will need to be paid out to secure this one.
Grand Seiko 5646-7010 cap gold
As I recommend with all listings for the 56GS references, always check the description to see if it specifically mentioned that the day/date quickset mechanism is working.
Oddly on this listing, despite the watch having been serviced this month, according to the Google Chrome in-browser translation, the seller appears to state that the quickset is not working.
“By pulling the crown to one click, quick day/date changes are not
possible, and by pulling the crown to two clicks, the time can be adjusted, and we confirm that the day/date changes every 24 hours.”
This seemed so odd to me that I double-checked the translation using Deepl, which resulted in this -
“Single pull on crown for day-date quick-change, two pulls on the crown allows time adjustment and confirms day-date changeover every 24 hours.”
Aha, so the quickset does work then.
And triple checked with ChatGTP -
"One click on the crown, no day-date quick change is available. Two clicks on the crown allow time adjustment and confirm the day-date changeover every 24 hours."
Or does it?
A reminder that with this one, you should always ensure that the case flanks retain their vertical brushing (vertical if the watch is flat on a table), which they clearly do here.
The translation issue as to whether or not the quickset does work is very frustrating, because this is otherwise a really nice example of the reference.
If there are any readers who are able to translate this correctly, please do let us know in the comments!
Inner and outer boxes for a 56GS on a bracelet
We had one of these turn up a couple of weeks ago, and I remarked then how rare it is to come across this one with its outer box (the dimensions of the inner box are different to the regular 56GS box, so the outer boxes are not interchangeable).
Well, here’s another one, and it’s again from the same seller.
Not sure how many of these he might have squirreled away, but the last one sold for what I felt was a very reasonable 29,000 Yen, so let’s see how this one does.
Inner box for the 44GS
I did warn you in the introduction that it was going to be a bit of a box-heavy week in the recommendations section, and here’s what is probably the second most desirable one after the box for the first Grand Seiko, that for the 44GS.
Although it’s typically to pair with a 44GS that people chase this box for, it is also correct for the 62GS, and the late non-chronometer 57GS. Very rarely seen with those however, as it makes more sense to split the watch up from the box so that someone with a 44 can chase it!
Inner box for the 61GS and 45GS
Yes another box! This one is way more desirable than the 56GS box that doesn’t have the “Hi-Beat 36000” text embroidered on this inside lid, although frankly I don’t think the price differential between the two is as significant as it will end up being in the future.
Inner box for?
And we are still not done with the boxes, but if you’ve continued to read this far and not simply skip over them to the dodgy listings, your patience is about to be rewarded.
The seller makes the claim that this box is for the “Grand Seiko VFA Very Fine Adjusted”, but I’m not entirely sure that is correct. However…
I don’t recall ever seeing this box before.
At first glance, it might look similar to the boxes for the early quartz VFA’s, but those don’t have flat sides, and on the inside lid is a bit of a giveaway that they are for Quartz watches.
Those subscribers who have read my primer on the Grand Seiko VFA’s -
- might recall this image from the very end of that newsletter -
- but I knew as soon as I saw the listing that it is not the box for the 6185-8000, because that one is immediately distinguishable because the lower part of the box is so shallow.
All the other VFA’s that I have seen full sets for - and the Astronomical Observatory Chronometer, and the 68-6000 UTD, and the 35SQ Astron (whose box is not marked quartz) - come in long boxes.
So what’s it for?
Well, if it is for a VFA - and there is no evidence at all that it is - then there is only one possible watch it could be for, and that is for the only VFA that I’ve never seen a full set for.
In fact, I’ve never seen an example of the reference at all, outside of the single Seiko Special Luxury Catalogue in which it is featured - the 6185-7000 on the bracelet.
If anyone has any ideas which reference this box is for, please do feel free to make some suggestions in the comments below.
In the meantime, please don’t fight me for this one!
It’s not a vintage Grand Seiko, but I like it
Seiko Astronomical Observatory Chronometer (4580 movement)
It is impossible to overstate what an astonishing accomplishment the Seiko Astronomical Observatory Chronometer was.
In a few weeks I will be doing newsletter dedicated to the reference, because I think there are a few kew aspects about it that, to this day, are not fully recognised. And when people do fully appreciate its significance, I rather suspect there are going to be quite a few more collectors out there who will want to acquire one.
This one has a minimum bid price of 4.5M Yen. If anyone manages to secure it for that, I rather suspect they will look back on their purchase in the future and consider themselves very lucky indeed.
Anthony Kable over at Plus9Time has the seminal reference article on the AOC, which I thoroughly recommend you familiarise yourself with.
As a closing aside, I believe the Astronomical Observatory Chronometer is the only vintage Seiko watch (and quite possibly the only non-numbered limited edition Seiko of all time) for which exact production numbers are known. The example offered for sale in this listing comes from one of the later batches, and has the 4580 VFA movement.
Seiko Crown J14066 “lefty”
I’m not really as clued up on Crowns as I probably should be, but I know a really attractive watch when I see one.
Even if it wasn’t for the remarkable fact that this is a watch made to be worn on the right wrist (hence the crown at 9 for easier winding if you’re left-handed), it’s just a gorgeous looking piece in absolutely perfect condition.
I have no idea as to the value of this one, but I hope it finds a loving home!
King Seiko Vanac 5626-7160
Just a gloriously bonkers watch from 1972, with an incredible sculptured case and deeply faceted crystal.
How I would love to put this one on the robot and give it a spin!
It’s almost a third of the way towards its buy-out price now, and it will be interesting to see what this closes for tomorrow. Again, as with the Crown above, I have no idea as to the values of these but a little over a thousand bucks buys you one heck of a lot of wrist presence!
(On the subject of faceted crystals, if you take a look at my Instagram account, you’ll get a heads-up as to the watch that I will offering for sale in Monday’s newsletter.)
Takashi
Grand Seiko 4420-9000 late dial
Be warned that our usual suspect has his usual assortment of references with fake dials, including many King Seikos as well.
Here is just one example of his wares this week - the late dial variant of the 44GS. For the most obvious tell, look no further than the K in Seiko.
The first Grand Seiko with printed logo dial
This will be an interesting one to watch because I suspect quite a few people (who aren’t wise enough to subscribe to this newsletter!) will probably get taken in by it - no fewer than 144 people are watching the auction.
No, it is not a legitimate printed logo dial variant of the first Grand Seiko, despite at first glance looking OK. Whoever is responsible for creating this specific print has taken a lot of care with it, but there are still some tells there for those who look closely enough.
Even if the print were perfect however, there is still one glaring problem.
All legitimate examples of the print logo dialed first Grand Seiko that I have come across can be found in cases dating from the first quarter’s production of the watch - April through June 1960. This means that all examples must have the “split 12” index not the single piece index that we see here. For more background to this I would refer you to the primer that I wrote on collecting this reference -
What is interesting about this watch is that - given the single index at twelve on a dial that has not been carved, nor has a raised logo - it would seem that the base dial that has been used here does not originate from an example of the first Grand Seiko. I’m not entirely sure how it would be possible to turn a carved or raised logo dial into a flat one ready for printing.
This is not the only listing from this seller that has been featured in these newsletters, and as we will shortly see, it’s not even the only listing from him this week.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
Unlike the print logo dial variant above, I don’t think anyone is going to have any problems spotting that this dial has been redone. It seems whoever did this one couldn’t help himself having a little flourish on the D of Diashock!
Print logo dial for the first Grand Seiko
From the same account as the faked print logo dial first Grand Seiko earlier (what a surprise!) comes this faked print logo dial. He offers these up for sale on a quite regular basis.
“Imperial VFA”
And finally this week, although this auction closed last night (with no bids!) it’s still worth highlighting.
Yes - it’s from the same seller with the dodgy print dials, and regular readers will be very familiar with the watch, but he’s finally taken off the caseback to reveal the movement!
Quelle surprise. Not a VFA after all.
Redone coloured dial summary
I close with the usual reminder to steer clear of any vintage Grand Seikos with coloured dials similar to the above. This is not a comprehensive photo - there are many references that get this “treatment” (and there seem to be a lot of these listed this week) so be careful out there.
4580 8020
Aside from the things we love and respect about it... imo that case is not just vanity, but a hedge against “interesting times” in Asia