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Introduction
This weeks newsletter again features more than its fair share of examples of the first Grand Seiko (in all sections of the newsletter), and there are some interesting little titbits to unearth in the listings.
Whilst the “good guys” section kicks off with a couple of examples of Grand Seiko VFA’s, I rather suspect most will be watching them both from the sidelines rather than getting in on the action.
The “It’s not a vintage Grand Seiko, but I like it” listing that I’ve picked out this week is one that I would make a very strong case for actually being a vintage Grand Seiko, and the usual suspects also make appearances this week, although one of them actually has something worth considering for once.
Those who follow my watchdxb account over on Instagram might have noticed me recently ranting somewhat about the state of that platform these days. It has got to the point now where “the algorithm” is so utterly broken that unless you are prepared to pay to promote your posts, your followers will very rarely see them.
I have decided therefore that from the start of the New Year, I will be no longer posting content on my watchdxb account on Instagram, but instead will set up a second newsletter here on Substack. More on that to come, but for now, let’s get back to the business at hand.
Katniss Everdeen
Grand Seiko 6185-8021 VFA
This week’s good guys section leads with a relisting of a watch that led the listings in the newsletter two weeks ago.
I will refer you back to what I wrote about it last time, but suffice to say, there are a number of caveats to consider here, and perhaps it’s best not to get too carried away by the fact that the watch comes complete with its matching numbers certificate.
No hint as to why the watch has been listed is given in the description (when first listed, the auction closed with a bid of a little over 1.9M Yen that was subsequently canceled), but the fact it took two weeks to relist makes me ponder on whether or not the winning bidder missed the fact that the watch is not running, because the bid was only cancelled 10 days after the close of the auction, and then immediately relisted just one minute later.
Grand Seiko 6185-8021 VFA
Listed up here because at least it’s legitimate, but with a dial that damaged from moisture, I can’t help but be very concerned as to what the state of the movement is.
One for the very brave only!
Although, I do need a crown from one of these…
Case for the first Grand Seiko
Whilst it comes from a seller notorious for dealing in fake stainless steel first Grand Seikos and aftermarket buckles presented as the original vintage article, there is actually nothing awry with the offering here.
The case is from the final month of production, so would only work with either the regular raised logo SD dial, or the rare AD dial variants of the reference.
A BiN of 98,000 Yen actually feels pretty reasonable to me for this one if anyone is on the lookout for a new case (which I suspect very few are though!).
Grand Seiko 5641-7005
No takers for the 5646-7005 on the bracelet as of yet, but for those who like the watch’s aesthetic who aren’t prepared to fork out 750,000 Yen for all that gold, this one is certainly worth your consideration.
The case does appear to have had some gentle polishing over the years, but not so much that the original brushed finish has vanished completely.
Importantly, this one comes with its original buckle, which will increase the interest in the listing substantially.
Unfortunately, the seller’s description of “The needle moves when shaken, but the rotor makes an abnormal noise, so it will be listed as junk.” doesn’t exactly convey a great deal of confidence in the functionality of the watch. Having said that, this is a 56GS, and parts (or even entire donor movements if required) are plentiful and cheap, and any competent watchmaker should have no trouble bringing it back to life should things be as bad as they are made out to be.
Would I have listed it were it not to have the original buckle? Probably not, but this might be a great opportunity to pick one of these up for a low price if you don’t mind the potential project aspect.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
Our fake First fabricator returns for a second time this week in the good guys section with what looks to actually be a rather nice example of the raised logo dial first Grand Seiko.
Is he going legit? Well no. A quick look at his other listings brings up a modern reproduction buckle for the first Grand Seiko that he’s listed at a minimum bid of 49,000 Yen and a BiN of 69,000.
The over-exposure on the dial could be hiding some nasty surprises here, so this one isn’t exactly a risk-free opportunity, and of course there is always the question as to whether one should be supporting a seller who more often than not deals in fakes when they do list something legitimate.
One for Scott - note the more bulbous crown on this one when compared to the listing from Watch CTI featured last week, indicating that it is actually the crown for the first King Seiko. This is very commonly found on examples of the first Grand Seiko - so common in fact that I can’t help thinking Seiko themselves simply used the same part as a spare for both watches back in the day.
Grand Seiko 1964-0010
Here’s another relisting, which also featured in the newsletter a couple of weeks back. That time around the auction closed for 56,555 Yen, with the bid cancelled 6 days later.
As per usual, no explanation has been given for the relisting, but it is worth noting that this is from an account that I have always considered to be a reputable and trustworthy seller. Typically if this guy is holding out for a price, he will set a minimum bid on a piece (just check out the rest of his listings for some real gems).
Often a relisting scares people off, and it’s rare for a watch to close for more than it did first time around, so this could turn into a real steal for someone!
The first Grand Seiko with carved logo dial
It’s a good job I checked my own watch list on Yahoo after going through the listings in descending order of the number of bids, because somehow I missed out on this one.
Rechecking, I think what must have happened was between loading up and going through the first page, then clicking onto the second page of listings, this one somehow swapped between the two and I missed it entirely!
Unfortunately the images are not particularly good and the blown out exposure on the dial could be hiding things. What is visible is the usual spotting that is only to be expected, but there could be some nasty surprises in store.
Or, it could turn out to be one of the nicest examples of an early split-12 index carved dial first Grand Seikos to turn up in quite some time. Such is the excitement of buying remotely from a seller who doesn’t have a clue how to photograph a watch (which is somewhat ironic considering the number of cameras the company has listed for sale)!
Not much more to say on this one really, except that the crown could be original (but I honestly don’t think anyone alive could tell you for certain), and it’s a shame we don’t get to see the case serial number (which must indicate production in 1960).
In the current market there aren’t that many risk takers around, so this will probably go for a song. I’m sat on loads of first Grand Seikos (the quality of which I do know!), so will sit back and watch this one with interest. If someone here does take the plunge and wins it, please do share your (hopefully) good news when it arrives!
It’s not a vintage Grand Seiko, but I like it
Seiko Grand Quartz 9940-7010 with tiger eye dial
It’s worth reflecting for a moment on how differently collectors might view the Seiko Grand Quartz line of the mid 70’s through to the mid 80’s were the watches to be branded ever so slightly differently.
I’ve written previously on how in my view, there is absolutely no question that the Seiko Grand Quartz references are, to all intents and purposes, Grand Seikos in their own right, and are the missing link in a practically uninterrupted line of Grand Seiko watches from 1960 right through to the current day.
This is just a fabulous reference, and one of my favourites from the Grand Seiko Quartz - sorry, Seiko Grand Quartz - range. Although only ever appearing in a single catalogue (volume 1 from 1980, alongside two other variants with the same case and bracelet - a black dial with the single Roman numeral at 12, and a white textured dial) at the rather high price of 120,000 Yen - these turn up fairly often, probably a testament to the quality of the watches Seiko was producing at the time.
Obviously with stone dialed watches, each one is unique, but this example is I think particularly appealing with that light stripe waving its way right through the center of the dial. For comparison, here’s mine, along with bonus photos of the two other dial variants -
Gotta catch ‘em all!
A trio of examples of the first Grand Seiko at Regalo
If I’d caught this last week, I would have posted these instead of the two “Firsts” at Watch CTI, but fortunately they remain available, so it presents a good opportunity for discussion.
This is the first time in a long time that I can recall (although read on…!) examples of the three primary dial variants of the first Grand Seiko - Print, Carved, and Raised logos - being available from the same dealer in Japan at the same time.
I’ll just post the links and primary photos first, then get to my brief thoughts.
The first Grand Seiko with print logo dial - 1,650,000 Yen, April 1960
The first Grand Seiko with carved logo dial - 913,000 Yen, 1960
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial - 473,000 Yen, 1963
The first thing to note regarding these three watches is that they are all in a very similar condition, with relatively minor dial issues, good cases, and no missing medallions (for a change!). If you were looking to pick up examples of all three major dial types to join your collection, you could do far worse than pick up what is on offer here all in one go.
The print dial in particular is in very good condition, with just a few minor scrapes and scratches (in addition to the always present spotting of course) that would be considerably less obtrusive on the wrist than in the magnified photos.
Those with better memories than I might recall that back in September 2022, a newsletter featured this same dealer listing the same triumvirate of print, carved, and raised logo dialed “Firsts”. I had completely forgotten about this until I went hunting to see what the print logo dial that I recalled the dealer having a while back was listed for.
And guess what? This is actually the exact same watch, and the carved logo dial is the same watch this time around as well. I suspect that the collector who purchased them last time around has reconsigned them back with the dealer to sell on his behalf. Interestingly, the prices for the two watches remain exactly the same as they were a little over a year ago.
Rather spookily - especially when you consider how variable it has been of late - the FX rate between the US dollar and the Japanese Yen is also pretty much the same today as it was at the time of publishing that earlier newsletter (although most definitely moving in the opposite direction).
What goes around, comes around!
President Coriolanus Snow
The first Grand Seiko with carved logo dial and split 12 index
I almost passed by this one as the photos are of such low resolution, but that shorter, fatter, split 12 index is plain to see, which means when we look closely at the dial we should be able to identify it as having a carved logo.
Ok, so it’s not that clear, but carved logo it is, and the hour and minute hands are of the mountain variety which is to be expected.
Unfortunately that’s where the good news ends though, since even with this single low resolution image it’s obvious that it’s not exactly the cleanest dial one could hope to find. Additionally, that isn’t the original second hand, and when we take a look at the caseback, we find the medallion is missing. Finally, that crown certainly isn’t correct - not even for an early example of the reference.
Well, I say finally, but it transpires on reading the description that, whilst the watch is running, it does so without the second hand actually moving.
This write-up started in the good guys section, but a quick cut and paste to where it belongs!
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
When something looks too good to be true, it usually is.
Such is the case with this listing where at first glance we appear to have an immaculately preserved dial on this raised logo first Grand Seiko, but unfortunately the reason for the cleanliness of the dial is immediately explained away with just a cursory glance at the font.
Never does cease to amaze me how someone could do such an elegant job, and yet still get it completely wrong!
Grand Seiko 5722-9991
Our friend is back from a short break with his usual junk. The advice remains the same as always - avoid all his listings.
The first Grand Seiko in stainless steel
The seller lists this as “Grand Seiko First SS (junk)”, and yes - it is of course complete junk.
Top marks to the Yahoo user who asked the question “Isn’t this a fake?”, and I guess kudos to the seller for actually publishing the question and replying.
Grand Seiko 6156-8040
I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that there is a lot wrong here!
Redone coloured dial summary
I close with the usual reminder to steer clear of any vintage Grand Seikos with coloured dials similar to the above. This is not a comprehensive photo - there are many references that get this “treatment”, so be careful out there.
How do people cancel bids days after the auction? My card gets charged immediately when I win. A less interesting week despite the amount of content I think. The print dial is obviously the stand out and sounds like if you want one you should just bite the bullet and take it - kyotoya has tons of expensive carved listings already.
Late first crowns
So now I’m clinging to the notion that the incorrect crown on my AD is at least factory original. Don’t blame them a bit. Emphasis had to be on the selfdater or GS dies on the vine