Stupid people are dangerous
Introduction
This week kicks off with no fewer than five different auctions for examples of the first Grand Seiko - with three of them currently topping the list of auctions in the Grand Seiko category when ranked by number of bids. Staying with the “First”, we also discover that some enterprising seller has decided to split up what was clearly an original set (although missing the certificate), and sell the inner and outer boxes, and the manual, separately.
Whilst this probably makes sense financially for the seller, and gives all those people out there with just the inner box the chance to pick up the much sought after outer box, it does seem a shame to me that the original watch will almost certainly be parted from its accessories that have stayed with it for more than six decades.
Seeings as there are multiple examples of the first Grand Seiko featured this week, I’ll have a stab at ranking them - it will be interesting to review the results to see how I did!
I think I have mentioned previously that dealers in Japan seem to be bumping their asking prices for examples of the first Grand Seiko of late, with comments that good condition ones are becoming increasingly hard to find.
Maybe my collection of over 20 examples of the first Grand Seiko wasn’t such a bad move all those years ago after all, although I should probably mention that only two of those are actually the common raised logo variant (and just happen to be full sets)!
Also included this week are a brace of Toshiba commemorative watches, and the most expensive vintage Grand Seiko to ever go on sale (most expensive when it was originally sold at retail, of course!).
The “It’s not a vintage Grand Seiko, but I like it” this week is a rather special digital watch that launched in 1981 and holds a remarkable “first” record, and I also take a look at a couple of first Grand Seikos currently with Japanese dealers.
Our bad guy section includes of course a watch from our nemesis, although one that from the first photo I originally thought I might have to list in the top half of the newsletter, but never fear - this guy doesn’t let us down once we take a closer look at his wares.
Also, how does a watch that I originally purchased for just 10,000 Yen turn up with the baddies? Read on to find out!
Katniss Everdeen
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
This is the first of three examples of the first Grand Seiko to be listed by the same seller, who also has the boxes and manual all split up. Which one of his watches those accessories originally came with I guess will forever remain a mystery.
In all his listings the seller hides the movement serial number and doesn’t show the inside caseback, so there’s not a great deal to go on with regards dating these except to check the caseback medallion.
Here it’s the later style, which means this one is from the latter half of the production timeline, and would have been produced sometime in 1962 or 1963.
The case appears to be in very good condition with clearly defined lugs, but the dial unfortunately has a quite significant mark running diagonally from the three to the six index. Not entirely sure how this would have surfaced as it’s not the typical sort of aging that you might expect to see on one of these.
Note that this auction closes today (Friday).
Rank amongst the “Firsts” on Yahoo detailed in this week’s newsletter - 4/5.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
Next up is a listing that closes on Sunday, and is from a different seller. Do pay attention to the auction end times if you are interested in picking up one of these!
Here the seller does not hide the serial numbers, which is always a good thing to see. This one is on the face of it a little odd since the case serial number indicates production in January 1963, whilst the movement serial is pretty early - 606592.
However, when it comes to this reference, that’s not actually something to be overly concerned about. It’s not uncommon to find early movements in later watches, and I’ve actually seen a movement just three away from this one - 606589 - that was in a watch from August 1963.
Like the first watch listed, this one has issues with the dial, with a rather prominent mark above the S that might be sufficient to put most people off. The case doesn’t look to be quite as sharp as the previous example, but this could be influenced quite a bit by the different way the two watches have been shot.
One thing to make your mind up with this one is regarding the crown. I’ve said many times that crowns for the first Grand Seiko are all over the place, with three different designs shown even in the March 1961 issue of Seiko News, so it’s really tough to make a call at times.
Certainly an argument might be made that this is a “correct looking” crown given how early the movement is.
Rank amongst the “Firsts” on Yahoo detailed in this week’s newsletter - 3/5.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
Back to the same seller as the first featured listing this week, and again an example with some fairly significant dial flaws, but I actually think this one would be the pick of the three so far, simply because the dial has that all-over spotting that is very commonly found with this reference. It’s a shame that maybe four of the spots are somewhat larger than one might desire, but at least there is no big scrape or large area of staining as seen on the previous two watches.
Once again, the serial numbers are not visible, but the late style medallion dates this to 1962 or 1963. That is very possibly the original crown, and when you see how much they wear down, it is hardly surprising so many have been replaced over the decades!
Case-wise, it looks similar to the first one. Practically all examples of this reference will of course have had at least quite a bit of hand polishing with a cloth over the years, but for me the main thing is that the lugs are still very well defined.
As with all the auctions from this seller, note that it closes today.
Rank amongst the “Firsts” on Yahoo detailed in this week’s newsletter - 2/5.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
And they just keep on coming! Clearly from the presentation this is from another seller, with the auction closing on the more traditional Sunday evening (Japan time of course!).
This is - with one possible issue that you may want to correct - by a long way the best of the bunch, and the photos pretty much tell the story.
There are of course two key aspects to how a watch looks - the dial, and the case. As we have seen on the previous three listings, very often with examples of this reference, we are forced to compromise maybe a little more than we would like to with the dial, because they are quite prone to staining and degradation over the years.
Here, we are presented with a very clean dial. It’s certainly not perfect - if you look closely you will see some minor staining (check the 47 minute marker - that’s definitely on the dial and not a crystal flaw) and spotting (particularly around the index at 6), but it’s in a different league to the other listed this week.
The only slight downside is that the print is a little on the heavy side. The weight of the printing on first Grand Seiko dials can vary enormously. Whether it’s down to cliches (the carved metal plate from which the print is lifted when printing a dial) wearing out, different cliches being used over time, ink being mixed differently, or just a result of manual variance, I have no idea, but one place to always check is the negative space within the SD logo.
Here’s a zoom in on this one -
And here is an example of a much lighter touch on a print logo dial (this lighter touch is more commonly found on the earlier examples of the reference) -
/aside - gosh it’s been too long since I took a good look at a printed logo dial. I think I’ll have to make the full image my desktop wallpaper for a while, and I may well give one a spin on the robot next week!
Oof. OK dream over, back to work…
The case too looks to be in great condition, and - given the tarnishing on the caseback and the remarkably well preserved lion medallion - I rather suspect that unlike the others, this watch has not had decades of wrist time.
There is a question mark regarding the crown on this one. If, like the earlier listing, the movement turns out to be very early, then arguably it could be (or could pass for) an early type crown, but if not, you may want to get a “more correct” crown at some point in the future.
I certainly wouldn’t be put off chasing this one hard though simply down to that.
Rank amongst the “Firsts” on Yahoo detailed in this week’s newsletter - 1/5.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
Ordinarily I wouldn’t have included this one, but since I featured the other two from the same seller, I might as well drop it in here briefly.
Clearly the worst of the bunch this week, and not much more needs to be said. It’s not surprising that there is much less interest in this one than the others, and I rather suspect this will sell to someone who is just after movement parts.
Closes today, and rank amongst the “Firsts” on Yahoo detailed in this week’s newsletter - 5/5.
Grand Seiko 4522-8000 Toshiba Commemorative
An absolutely superb example of the hard to find Toshiba 25 year employment commemorative watch from 1971.
I suspect everyone is very familiar with the 57GS Toshiba watches which have their own serial-case reference number of 5722-9970, and can be found for the years 1965, 1966, 1967, and 1968.
Following the demise of the 57GS series, Toshiba moved to using this reference, examples of which can be found for the years 1969, 1970, and 1971. For the final two years in which these commemorative watches exist - 1972 and 1973 - the rather less collectible 5641-7000 was utilised.
I’m not sure if anyone out there has ever put together a full collection of all years (I think I’ve had examples from every year pass through my hands), but if you are thinking of doing so, you definitely will want to chase this example hard.
The pictures tell the story of course - crazy sharp case, beautiful dial, and very clearly etched dedication on the caseback.
Highly recommended.
Grand Seiko 1964-0010
Yet another opportunity to pick up one of these exquisite timepieces.
I will never get bored of recommending them when they in as good a condition as this one, and hopefully you will never get bored of seeing them here!
This is actually a relisting of the watch I recommended a couple of weeks back. Not sure why the top bid was cancelled, but hopefully it will find a loving home this time around.
Inner box for the first Grand Seiko
I rather suspect this seller’s strategy of splitting everything up and listing things separately is going to pay off, but if you are on the lookout for the inner box for the first Grand Seiko, be careful with this one, because it’s missing the inner tray.
Grand Seiko 6246-9001
Like the 44GS, the 62GS has had significant influence on the modern era watches, with many references utilising an updated version of its case design.
The 62GS was of course the first automatic Grand Seiko, and as such I would say that an example of the reference certainly deserves a place in any collection of more than half a dozen or so vintage Grand Seikos.
Featuring what are probably my favourite hour markers, the dials and handsets on these generally seem to survive the years in remarkably good condition, and the example presented here is no exception. It’s just a fabulous looking watch when the dial furniture is this good.
62GS cases often turn up over-polished, but the example here retains the all important sharply defined lugs and overall case profile. Clearly it has had some polishing over the years which has led to a slight dulling of the edges, but in normal viewing that won’t be too noticeable.
If you’re looking to add a 62GS to your collection, you could do a lot worse than this one.
Manual for the first Grand Seiko
Next to turn up from our broken up set is the manual for the first Grand Seiko. Not much more to say than that really!
Grand Seiko 5722-9970 Toshiba Commemorative
I don’t think two of the Toshiba commemorative references have been recommended in a single week before, but here’s an example of the 5722-9970 from 1965 that is well worth checking out.
Whilst not as “minty” as the 45GS we saw earlier, it’s still in great condition, with a lovely clean dial, and a case that hasn’t been over-polished and retains those all important strong bevels down the flanks.
1965 was the first year that Toshiba awarded these watches to employees who had completed 25 years of service (which would have meant they joined the company within the first year of its incorporation - a rather obvious explanation as to why we don’t see any of these commemorative watches prior to 1965!). Interestingly, although these days we all refer to these as “Toshiba” commemorative watches, that was originally only the company’s nickname (it was formed from the merger of Tokio Denki and Shibaura Seisakusho to create the “Tokyo Shibaura Denki Corporation”) - it didn’t formally adopt the name “Toshiba Corporation” until 1978.
I don’t know what the precise methods used were in creating the casebacks, but it is interesting to note that the dedication on the back of this watch looks to be stamped, whereas that on the later 45GS is (I presume chemically) etched.
I have seen examples of the 1965 commemorative 57GS with both the 43999AD and this later 5722-9990 Chronometer dials, but this is the first one I’ve seem with a confirmed 5722B movement. It’s a shame we don’t have a photo of the serial number on the inside caseback - the earliest 5722B movement in a 5722-9990 that I’ve come across to-date is from June 1965, and the “05” starting digits of the movement number of this example provide some more confidence that this is as it was originally shipped (fine knurled crown included).
Just don’t ever ask me to explain how it is that 5722B movements also turn up as early as September 1964 in the 18K gold 5722-9000’s, because that just blows my mind.
Go on - start your Toshiba collection by purchasing this and the 45GS. You know it makes sense!
Outer box for the first Grand Seiko
Despite its poor condition, I suspect there will be quite a few people chasing this final component of the original set being sold off piece by piece by the same guy this week. There are a lot of people out there with inner boxes for the first Grand Seiko, and not so many with the outer.
There are also a few other boxes available this week that I won’t write up in detail -
Inner and outer boxes for a 56GS
Grand Seiko 5646-7005
No bids yet, almost certainly because it has a starting price of 750,000 Yen.
But what surprises me more is that at the time of writing, just 8 people on Yahoo Japan have this on their watchlist.
As a reader was correct in answering the question I posed in the chat when this watch was first listed, the 5646-7005 on the 18K bracelet holds the distinction of being the most expensive Grand Seiko of the vintage era - yes, even more expensive than the 6185-7000 18K VFA that was offered on a very similar (but categorically not the same) bracelet.
The VFA only ever appeared in the 1971 Seiko Special Luxury Catalogue priced at 400,000 Yen, and I have yet to see a live photo of one, so this catalogue shot will have to suffice for now -
Even though we can’t see the outer surface of the clasp in the catalogue shot of the VFA (it is very unlikely that it would be branded Grand Seiko), we can tell that it is not the same bracelet as the one that was supplied with the 5646-7005 -
Having highlighted that fact though, it is oh so tempting to get this watch primarily for the bracelet, and put the bracelet on the VFA…
The reason for the 5646-7005 being more expensive than the VFA is simply down to timing. As mentioned, the VFA was only ever listed in the Special Luxury Catalogue in 1971, whereas the 56GS debuted in the 1973 issue of the same publication, priced at 500,000 Yen.
Price of gold in December 1971? $44 an ounce.
Price of gold in December 1973? $110 an ounce.
Whereas the 5646-7005 on a strap is very common - you can usually find multiple examples up for grabs every week - they are extraordinarily rare to find on a bracelet.
Why?
Price of gold in January 1980? $678 an ounce.
In fact, this is only the second time in the last decade or so that one has turned up on Yahoo (interestingly, the only other one was earlier this year back in February).
What really makes this listing stand out though is this image -
It is practically unheard of to come across an 18K gold Seiko watch on an 18K gold bracelet from this period that would fit an 18.5-19cm wrist (like I have…).
It’s just a shame that the case of the watch itself is not in the best condition, but frankly I suspect that this may well be tempting for someone just for the bracelet alone, and they can then sell the watch off and use it either on the VFA, or on a better example of the 5646-7005.
I rather suspect you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of examples of this bracelet, with this length, that will turn up in the next 30 years.
It’s probably a good job that nobody has pulled the trigger on one of the 4580-7010’s that I am currently offering for sale, because I rather suspect I know where 750K Yen of the money would have gone!
A selection of certificates at starting prices of 20,000 Yen, and BiN’s of 35,000 Yen
I won’t list them separately, but if you click on the link above, you will be taken to the listings of a seller who has a number of different Grand and King Seiko certificates and manuals available.
I’m not entirely sure he will get his BiN price for a certificate that has movement and/or case serial numbers on it, since really these only make sense if you have the matching numbers watch, but amongst his listings, he does have the manual for the 57GS, which might be tempting enough for someone.
It’s not a vintage Grand Seiko, but I like love it
Seiko D031-4000
The D031-4000 debuted in the first volume of Seiko’s 1981 catalogue, and holds the distinction of not just being the first ever watch with a dot matrix display, but in fact the first ever consumer product of any type with a dot matrix display.
If you go to a watch meet with one of these on your wrist, not only can you regale your friends with that little fact, but you can astound them with the watch’s party trick, which is when you press the button on the top right, the display changes to show the day and date, pauses for a moment, and then that scrolls off to the left, one pixel at a time, to be replaced by the time again, as the series of images in the listing show.
Absolutely fantastic, and as geeky as a watch gets.
LOVE it.
Do check out the seller’s listings for a few other great vintage digitals in superb condition.
A couple of first Grand Seikos currently with CTI in Tokyo
I was actually going to list a couple of examples of the first Grand Seiko that I saw at two different Japanese dealers this week, but heading over to CTI to grab details on the first one, I see that overnight he’s added a second, so I’ll just highlight both from there.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
First up is a watch that is listed at 451,000 Yen. As admitted in the listing, the dial is “a little disappointing”, but it’s worth highlighting so that you can compare it to the ones I’ve featured from Yahoo this week.
Japanese dealers “on the ground” will have far better insight into the market than someone like me who rarely gets the opportunity to visit Japan and can only assess things remotely, so when a long established and highly regarded dealer such as Koike-san from CTI says “The first model, which has a beautiful outer case and dial, is becoming increasingly rare in the market”, it’s worth taking note.
Also worth a mention - that is the “correct” crown design for the later examples of the first Grand Seiko. Note how there is almost no dome whatsoever to the crown when viewed in profile.
Contrast the more subtle printing on the dial on this one compared to the best example from Yahoo this week, and you’ll again see what I’m on about -
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
It’s always fascinating to see how dealers price similar watches, and to be perfectly honest, personally I would put a much higher variance on the prices of the two watches shared here than CTI has.
This one is priced at 495,000 Yen - just 10% more than the previous example. Yes, there are still some flaws on the dial of course, but they are nowhere near as significant as the ones on less expensive watch. Is the case a little softer here? Maybe, but frankly for me with the first Grand Seiko, the dial always trumps the case. Every. Single. Time.
Remember with both of these watches that you are buying from an unimpeachable trusted source, and each watch will have been thoroughly serviced. That peace of mind is certainly worth the premium over what you might be able to pick up a similar example for on Yahoo.
CTI always have a great collection of vintage Grand Seiko available, and if you ever visit Tokyo, are an absolute must visit!
President Coriolanus Snow
Grand Seiko 43999 SD dial
The dial here is fine (if a little “splodgy”), but it certainly doesn’t belong in this watch. Slight sense of deja vu - have we seen this one before?
5722A movement - wrong.
5722-9900 case dating from July 1965 - wrong.
Crown - wrong.
Caseback medallion - aftermarket junk.
Avoid!
Grand Seiko 5646-7040
I hesitated to include this at all, and then for a very brief moment hesitated as to which section to put it in, as for once, our usual friend is offering a watch with its original dial, and it’s one of the favourite references around these parts.
And then for the first time I got around to clicking through the rest of the photos in the listing.
He has of course completely ruined the watch by polishing the case to oblivion, and has installed what I’m pretty certain is an aftermarket fake caseback medallion. He probably removed the original one to sell it for the gold value.
Grrr.
As usual, avoid his other listings as well.
Grand Seiko 4522-7000
Normally I’d overlook something like this, but since the seller originally listed it for a BiN price of 10,000 Yen, and I won it, and he then cancelled the auction and has relisted, he goes in the sin-bin. Hahaha
I couldn’t believe my luck when I picked this up for just 10K, as despite its issues, it was a veritable bargain for the spare parts that could be taken from it.
As a watch on open auction though, it is best to be avoided. I almost feel sorry for the guy mis-listing it and then cancelling my winning bid after everything he did to get it “ready” for auction -
“The back cover was stuck, so I used a large opener, but it slipped a little and it got a little scratched.
So I shaved it off and fixed it, but there are still some scratches left. I repolished the entire back cover, but some scratches remained.
Also, the numbers have become thinner and the corners have become a little rounded, but I think the luster has been restored.
Since the GS medal on the back cover was not included, it is a generic medal purchased from Yahoo! Auctions.”
Almost.
Grand Seiko 5646-7010
It’s been a while since I’ve featured (a) a watch from the uber-seller who only ever provides four photos; and (b) a gorgeously patinated dialed 56GS.
Buuuut, there’s a problem here, which is why, for once, such a listing turns up with the bad guys. How long did it take you to spot it?
Redone coloured dial summary
I close with the usual reminder to steer clear of any vintage Grand Seikos with coloured dials similar to the above. This is not a comprehensive photo - there are many references that get this “treatment”, so be careful out there.
Phew. That turned into quite the epic. Hope you got through it all, and as usual, an comments please do share below, or start up a thread in the chat!
Good lord. The first GS manual closed for ¥61,500. Almost as much as the inner and outer boxes combined. Clearly the missing inner tray and the condition of the outer box kept the prices down on those two.
There are two 6185 7000 posts by Des Chan on fb Grand Seiko Owners Club.