This never happened to the other fellow
Introduction
Ok so firstly, and as a one-off to say thank you to the incredible support I have received over the last year from all 1,000+ subscribers, my regular Friday newsletter will be going out to ALL subscribers.
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The purpose of this newsletter is to provide guidance on which vintage Grand Seiko auctions on Yahoo Japan might be of interest to collectors. I also detail those “dodgy” listings that you need to avoid.
What you will notice is that this isn’t just a simple list of auction listings - in discussing the merits (and demerits) of the listings I often branch off into a bit of background that I hope will be useful in helping you to learn some of the nuances of collecting vintage Grand Seiko.
For those paid subscribers who are reading one of these newsletters for the first time, you can access the archive of all the previous newsletters on the Substack website (or the iPhone and Android apps).
Chat
Recently I started using the new chat functionality which at the time was only available to users of the iOS app. I’m happy to report that Substack have now incorporated the chat functionality into the Android app, and I’m looking forward to seeing more people join in the discussions!
Important note for UK and EEA subscribers -
Yahoo Japan is now actively blocking connections from the UK and the European Economic Area due to the prohibitive costs of adhering to the GDPR regulations for a relatively small number of users.
To get around this for the purposes of this newsletter, links to the auctions detailed will be provided through one of the Japanese proxy companies - FromJapan. Please note that these links may not include every image included in the listing.
Whilst I have been a customer of FromJapan for many years, I do not receive any benefits from using these links.
It’s a very busy week this week, with lots to cover in both the recommended auctions and the “don’t touch with a bargepole” ones, so let’s crack on, starting with the former.
James Bond
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
First up this week is a lovely example of the raised logo dial variant of the first Grand Seiko. There are a couple of things worth highlighting about this one.
From the caseback shot we can see that the medallion is of the early type. For easy reference, here are photos of the two different medallions you will find on these watches -
Early
Late
From these high resolution images it should be clear that there are many little nuanced differences between the two, but often - depending on the quality and angle of the caseback shot provided - they aren’t all easy to identify.
However, the key thing to look for is the position of the line defining the back of the lion’s mane. This extends much further back down the lion’s body in the later medallion compared to the earlier one.
From having looked at several hundred examples of the first Grand Seiko over the years, I’m pretty confident in stating that early medallion can be found on all 1960 and 1961 production, and its use extends into January 1962.
This means that you should never come across a carved or print logo dialed example of the first Grand Seiko that has the later medallion. It also of course means that - since they first started to appear in watches dated from June 1961 - you will find examples of the raised logo dial variant with both medallion types.
The dealer who is selling this watch unfortunately never provides a shot of the inside caseback, so we can’t precisely date the watch on offer. What we can however say - with a very high degree of confidence - is that this watch should date from sometime between June 1961 and January 1962.
However we can probably narrow down its production date to a smaller timeframe than that.
One of the things to notice about the frontal shot of this watch is that it is not possible to discern the dial code.
On the vast majority of raised logo dial first Grand Seikos it should be possible to see at least the very top of the dial code in a front on shot, like the example below -
Unfortunately even with the best angled shot from this listing, it’s not quite possible to see whether or not the dial code has the SD suffix -
There is a mark to the right of the code that could be the top of the S, but it could equally just be a dial spot. Sometimes these watches turn up with aftermarket crystals whose profile is slightly different to the original, and this can help hide the dial code even on the SD suffixed dials.
If there is no SD suffix, then that dial code will just be GSJ14H156E, and it would indicate that this would be one of the transitional pieces, examples of which I have seen only dated from June through to August 1961.
To be fair, much of the above is probably only of academic interest - the market doesn’t really differentiate between the raised logo transitional pieces and the much more common regular ones. Yet. But who knows - in time little things like this might become more important to collectors!
All that said and done, this is a very nice example of the raised logo dialed first Grand Seiko from a trustworthy account. The case and dial are both in excellent condition, although do note the mark on the dial between the 1 and 2 hour markers. It’s really hard to find examples of this reference without some kind of mark on the dial (the small spotting is to be expected on pretty much every example you could ever come across), so I doubt this will put off too many bidders.
The final thing to highlight is that the crown is not an original part for the first Grand Seiko - I think that’s one from the first King Seiko, although it could also a crown from a Crown. The vast majority of first Grand Seikos have had their original crown replaced over the years, and - depending on the production date of the watch - there can be quite a bit of confusion as to exactly what the correct crown is. For more on this, do check out the article I wrote on the introduction of the reference in the March 1961 issue of Seiko news.
Grand Seiko 6246-9000
When it comes to the 62GS, I think it’s probably fair to say that (excepting for the extremely rare -9010 dial variants of the 6246-9001) collectors have a strong preference for the 1966 production 624x-9000’s over the 1967/8 production 624x-9001’s.
The reason for this is that those watches produced in 1966 have the lion medallion on the caseback, whereas from 1967 onwards Seiko moved to using the new GS branded one.
Where one has to be careful though - and a subject on which I have touched before in these newsletters - is that your 624x-9000 is a genuine Grand Seiko, and not a redialed Seikomatic Chronometer (which is, to all intents and purposes - excepting the dial - an identical watch).
The particular example offered here dates from April 1966, which is comfortably in the period where we would expect all production to have shifted over to Grand Seiko branded 62’s.
Although I suspect the case has seen a little “attending to”, the caselines still remain very strong, with nicely defined lugs. Dials on these tend to age extremely well, and it is great to see that there are no major issues on that front. Obviously (at least, I hope it should be obvious!), neither the box nor buckle are from the vintage era.
Perhaps the only negative to highlight is the damage to the edge of the medallion. It’s unfortunately just one of those things that some people do seem to have fun chipping away at these!
The first Grand Seiko with carved logo dial
Well now, at first glance this looks very exciting indeed, but as we will see when we start to dig deeper, not all is as it initially appears.
To the best of my recollection, this is only the second time that an example of the first Grand Seiko has turned up on Yahoo with the early box.
Remarkably, it gets listed just one week after this happened -
Last Sunday, after a very strongly contested bidding war, an example of the early box (both inner and outer, and with some accessories) sold for 600,000 Yen.
Yes - that was just for the box. No watch included.
When I saw this new listing pop up, less than 24 hours after the auction for the box had closed, I could hardly believe my eyes. Another early box? And this time with the watch and swing tags?
Well, yes - it is the (inner) early box, and sure enough it comes with a carved logo dial watch and swing tags.
But there is a problem.
Firstly let’s take a look at the watch.
Whilst we would only ever expect to come across the early box with either carved or print logo watch (I think it’s fair to say that nobody currently knows what the production period of this early box was, let alone how many were ever made), I am confident in stating categorically that this box is not original to the watch that it is being sold with.
The listing is rather oddly formatted, in that there is just one photo in the usual place for the gallery, and then in the text description is a single very tall image composite. As I scrolled down through those images, the first thing that struck me was the the watch has the flat hands. Flat hands and a carved logo dial - if legitimate - can only mean one thing. This is one of the transitional pieces (discussed earlier was a possible example of the raised logo transitional variant, which shares the same dial code).
Next was the movement number - 109169. Whilst it is possible - indeed common - to find an early movement in a much later case, it is impossible to have a late movement in an early case. Checking my database of “Firsts”, the earliest example I could find of a movement number 109xxx was in April 1961.
Sure enough, scrolling down a little further and this watch’s caseback serial number dates it to the same month - April 1961.
So - movement and case serials, and the handset all point to this being a very late example of a carved logo dialed first Grand Seiko, specifically from the transitional period (carved logo transitionals I have seen dating only from between April and June 1961).
Although there is no certificate with the watch, there is the swing tag that indicates the movement number (this would have been originally tied to the watch buckle, so that the watch could be displayed in store, and then matched up with the correct certificate when it was sold, without having to open up the caseback). A photo of the rear of the swing tag is provided, and we can immediately see that the hand written tag does not match the movement number. The tag shows a movement number of 603923.
So it is clear that someone has created a partial set here from multiple sources. Whether or not the tag is original to the box is impossible to state for certain, but it is certainly a very early movement number (I have seen movement numbers in the 603xxx-604xxx range in watches from the first month of production, April 1960), so the box and tags could originally have been together.
Assuming we can trust the watch itself, and that the dial code is GSJ14H156E (the E is very important if this is truly a correct carved logo dial with flat hand transitional piece), the only thing of concern would be the rather obvious - and irregular - patination on the dial, which will keep the price down somewhat.
The case is of average condition for this reference, and the medallion being detached is very common (what isn’t so common is for the medallion to still be with the watch, so certainly some bonus points for that!), and it’s easy to reattach it with a tiny drop of super glue.
One piece of advice should you bid and win this watch - when you reattach the medallion, do make sure that it is orientated so that the lion is upright when the crown is at 12, and that the little cutaway lip in the underside of the caseback (used for opening the watch) is at 6 - as indicated by the highlighted section in the photo below.
This is how all medallions were originally aligned on the production line. The reason is that the position of the lip in the caseback lid is very important to ease opening of the caseback without damaging any part of the case - you need space around the lip for the tool used to open the caseback to work. Never, ever, close the caseback with the lip near the crown or the lugs! By having consistency in the relative orientation of the lion to the lip, and always ensuring the lion is oriented to the crown in the way show, it will always be possible to open up the watch without damaging the case.
Gosh, this is turning into a long one today!
Ok, the box…
It’s rare. Very rare indeed. Unfortunately we do have only the inner box here (I only know of three examples of the inner and outer boxes existing together), but I still expect there to be a very strong fight for this - despite the staining on the inside lid fabric.
It’s certainly a very exciting listing, but not quite so exciting as you may first be led to believe on seeing the first photo.
Just how valuable would a full set first Grand Seiko in the early box be? Let’s just put it this way - I have turned down a six-figure US$ offer for the example in my collection.
Grand Seiko 5722-9990
Ok there is still a lot to get through this week. Apologies - I’m going to have to speed things up a bit, rather than writing multi-hundred word essays on each watch!
Super clean example of a 5722-9990/5722-9991 transitional piece.
This has the case of the 5722-9990, but the dial, movement and crown of the 5722-9991 (non-chronometer dial, 5722B movement, fine knurled crown).
Nothing wrong with that at all - there are plenty out there like this and they are legitimately born this way.
Grand Seiko 43999 AD dial with papers
Ok, so this is a very rare opportunity indeed.
43999’s with papers are almost unheard of. I have one - with the watch dating from January 1964 - and, err, that’s it. That’s the only other one I’m aware of.
Except for the extremely dodgy listing I highlighted back in September (which someone did fall for in the end, priced at 450,000 Yen), I’ve not found another example in the last 10 years of listings on Yahoo.
No doubt there are more out there undocumented in private collections, but it is interesting that not even Toki shows an example in the book on his collection.
One thing to note is that by the time of this watch being tested, Grand Seiko had moved over to using generic certificates that just stated the standards that the watch had to meet to pass inspection, rather than recording the actual test results of the watch.
Whilst this isn’t immediately apparent from any of the provided photos, you can see from the scan of the certificate accompanying my watch that the earlier certificate is of a completely different design -
Condition wise, the case by no means perfect, but certainly in the upper quartile of what you will come across, and the dial is very clean. NOS crystals for the 57GS are easy to come by, so don’t have any worries on that front.
Finally, it’s from a reputable seller, so you can have confidence that even though he’s not showing the full movement number, he’s not trying to trick you either.
Ugh. What was that I was saying about having to speed things up and not do multi-hundred word write-ups? I’m not going to finish the newsletter before the auctions for some of the watches close at this rate.
Pedal to the metal time…
Grand Seiko 4522-8000
Super example of the 4522-8000. A couple of minor dial spots, and a nice sharp (but certainly not unpolished) case.
Grand Seiko 4520-8000
If you prefer your 45GS 8000’s dateless, the same seller has you covered here. Basically the same level of quality as the 4522 above.
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
First off, a couple of things to highlight here in comparison to the first highlighted listing from this week. Note that the SD suffix on the dial code is clearly visible, and also how flat the surface of the crown is.
The crown is very worn, and almost certainly original. The dial is super clean and not reprinted. The case is OK, but has clearly lost a little of its definition over the years.
And from the caseback shot you’ll notice what I mentioned earlier about how to spot which lion medallion it is -
Even though it is of low resolution, you can still make out from the mane that this is the later medallion, and thus the watch will be from either 1962 or 1963 production.
As usual from this seller, we just get the four photos to make our decision on, but this looks like a nice honest example of the first Grand Seiko, and would make a great starter piece for any collection.
Grand Seiko 4420-9000 early dial
Ok so it’s not the greatest 44GS of all time, but it is the coveted early dial, and the condition is better than most that turn up.
Be wary of the discolouration around the center of the dial, and whilst it could be claimed that the case hasn’t been “refinished”, it has lost a bit of its original sharpness.
It should still do quite well though since demand always outstrips supply for these, and plenty or people are quite happy to go for the slightly lower quality pieces.
For a reminder of what a truly untouched one of these looks like…
That watch ruined every other 4420-9000 for me!
Grand Seiko 4522-7000
A nice honest example of the 4522-7000 with a sharp case and a lovely gently patinated dial. Buy it, wear it, and don’t worry about knocking it!
Ok - finally. That’s it for the good guys this week.
Oh.
No it isn’t. There is more…
Bracelets and buckles
Need a separate section for these this week. Lots to choose from, and I will run through them quickly because it’s close to four hours so far on this newsletter! I will keep commentary to a minimum. Refer to Anthony Kable’s superb article for more background.
XQB011 - for the 564x-7010
The seller describes this as being for a 45GS, this is not correct.
6145/46 800 for the 614x-8000
This is the big one. So, so rare with the correctly stamped endlinks, and in superb condition. Could very well end up at four figures US$ (if I had the spare cash, I’d chase it into that ballpark without hesitation). Possibly it is missing a link or two, but I would anticipate that it should be good for a 18.5cm wrist.
XJB170 with a GS clasp
Don’t get carried away with this one. As far as I’m aware the bracelet links are not for a Grand Seiko (a Frankenstiened bracelet?!). I’m including it here just for brevity rather than put it in the bad guy section.
XQB070 for the 564x-7010
The catalogues show two different bracelets being sold with the 5645/6-7010’s at different times. XQB011 that we saw earlier, and this one. As with all bracelet sales, pay close attention to the length of the bracelet - this one in particular looks like it’s pretty short, and might only be good enough for up to a 17cm wrist. Caveat Emptor.
Note - despite the listing description, this is not the correct bracelet for a 61GS Special, but the next one is…
XAB271 for the 615x-8000 Special
And conversely, despite what the seller states, this is not correct for a 56GS.
Be warned though - this is being sold without the end links, which will limit its potential use somewhat!
(Anthony - apologies, I nicked the below photo from your site as I don’t have time to cut from one of my scans!)
“project” 6145/6 800 for the 614x-8000
Honestly I’m no expert so I’m not sure how rescuable this one is, but it might be of interest to someone. Once again, a correctly stamped examples. Probably would be worth the effort in trying to make it work!
Buckle for a VFA
Finally in this section, a correctly stamped buckle for a VFA. Whether or not this is original I cannot say - this is the third I’ve seen since learning of the correct back stamping from my recent Japan trip. Either they weren’t just for the VFA’s, or possibly someone is reproducing them, or both. It simply doesn’t make sense that three original buckles that were unique to the VFA’s would turn up in such a short space of time.
But, if you have a VFA, this is certainly the buckle I would recommend for it.
It’s not a vintage Grand Seiko but I like it
Seiko Grand Quartz 9940-7010
Regular readers will know I have quite a collection of Seiko quartz models from the 1970’s, including an example of every non-precious metal cased reference from the “Seiko Grand Quartz” range. I wrote up an article on the Grand Quartz on the website a while back under the admittedly provocative title of “A History of Grand Seiko, 1975 to 1988”.
The 9940-7010 listed this week is one of those references that people are starting to wake up to, and no wonder. It’s a fabulous piece with an intricately textured case that flows seamlessly (almost - perhaps not so much on this particular example) into the bracelet.
Here’s a shot of mine -
The listing mentions that the watch is not running, and there is no guarantee that a fresh battery will bring it back to life. However, I have never had a 9940 turn up dead on arrival that wasn’t able to be resurrected with a service, so if you’re willing to take a risk, go for it.
If not, just wait for a running example to turn up. These truly are fabulous on the wrist!
Hmm. Perhaps I’ll dig mine out and put it on the robot for a video…
OK. This is absolutely ridiculous. I’m up to over 3,700 words already, and haven’t even got started on the bad guys. And boy, are there some bad guys this week.
Ernst Stavro Blofeld
(yes, him again two films running!)
The first Grand Seiko with raised logo dial
Aaand another one comes off the production line. Ugh. No need for further discussion, I’ve covered this one many times in the past.
The first Grand Seiko in stainless steel
It’s been a while since this particular variant of the fake SS “First” has turned up, but once again it’s from one of the usual sources (and this won’t be the most egregious of his contributions this week).
Note how with this one, he’s actually been able to pop the caseback off (which is far trickier than removing a screwback case), presumably because he thinks what is shown inside will help convince people it’s legit.
Don’t fall for it. It’s as fake as pretty much everything else he lists, such as…
“Special gem chrysanthemum crest Seiko”
Now then, you may think you’ve seen this one featured in previous editions of this newsletter (no fewer than three times in fact, most recently just two weeks ago).
And at first glance I thought so too. But as I scrolled through the photos, something odd turned up.
Here’s the caseback from the listing a fortnight ago -
And here’s the caseback from this week’s listing -
Honestly I have no idea what to make of it, but it’s definitely not the same watch with a different back (there are different marks on the dials).
Once again, he concocts the usual story, and claims he can’t open the caseback because he’s worried about damaging the watch, whilst trying to insinuate there’s a 45VFA movement inside.
This is just another completely egregious attempted con. Incredibly, the listing from two weeks ago was bid up to 784,000 Yen, and then cancelled. I can only assume the guy is shilling his own auctions.
How this kind of thing is allowed to happen on Yahoo Japan I cannot fathom, but what is most incredible to me is the level of disrespect involved in creating a fake of a Imperial gift. The mind boggles.
Grand Seiko 43999 SD dial
Aaaand another of these. Let’s take a quick look at what the last one sold for…
130,000 Yen
No wonder he pumps them out with such regularity.
Redone coloured dial summary
Signing off again this week with the usual reminder to steer clear of any vintage Grand Seikos with coloured dials similar to the above. This is not a comprehensive photo - there are many references that get this “treatment”, and several listings typically appear every week.
If you made it to the end, well done! Next week back to normal, with the newsletter going out just to paid subscribers.