Ok, so an extra newsletter for your inboxes this week, as there has been quite some discussion in the chat regarding a watch that has been listed for sale over at The Tokei Club, and whilst I initially started to simply reply in the chat thread itself, once I got to over 500 words and was nowhere near finishing, I realised that actually, it might be better to respond with a post instead!
Just wanted to throw my hat in here for what it’s worth - I’ve both bought from “H”, and had the pleasure of having a drink with him, and must concur with what Gerald said. His knowledge and passion for all things Seiko (and Citizen, and Orient) are encyclopaedic and infectious. Just so happens he’s also a genuinely top bloke, and a huge asset to this community.
I apologize for being late to the party. I enjoy Scott’s wits and Texas growl tremendously. I enjoy putting cute emoticons on watch photos. And this Substack is unique in its value.
Opinions are not a crime. Divergent opinions can be exposed in a policed and friendly manner.
At the end of the day we should behave or be banned.
I vote for the return of the chat - and general respect.
Divergent opinions are more than welcome - encouraged in fact. But people need to police themselves. I have other - considerably more enjoyable and rewarding - things that I can spend my time on, rather than get involved in any moderation whatsoever.
This instance was a one-off, because even following polite requests from me to keep things civil, physical threats were made.
Perhaps my expectations - that everyone here is capable of keeping things civil - are unrealistic. Time will tell. The future of this Substack is solely in the hands of those who contribute to it.
Chat will return on Monday (with all previous discussions restored).
I still have never seen those comments in this thread so can only assume Scott or you deleted them. Can’t hold me to that.
And I mean your watchdb IG is basically dedicated to shouting at the clouds (and continues to do so despite shouting at the IG algorithm cloud and resolving to quit by end 2023), so I find this Al very ironic.
I mean you literally closed off the chat lol hard to read that then isn’t it. Combined with a no censorship mantra, I’d assumed I’d read everything relevant to that point. A fair assumption I think.
Your assumption is of course objectively invalid because the discussion was here, in comments made on this very post.
It turns out that further comments on posts are not disabled when chat is turned off - my mistake. Chat?/comment? - I thought it was all the same thing as far as that button was concerned, but no. And what a more pleasant a place the discussion would be on this post, were my assumption to have been correct. Mea culpa.
This is getting kinda boring now, but I will close with these few comments -
I never thought I'd have to apply any censorship here - I've let a lot of "banter" go in the past, even to the point of emailing an individual requesting that they remove completely off-topic political commentary themselves because it doesn't belong here, rather than take the action directly myself to delete it.
Quite frankly, when I read this comment from you -
" it’s basically just me poking Scott and then Scott shouting at the clouds in earnest. Without that dynamic what would be left!"
- the very first thing that came to my mind was, "well, it would be a far more mature discussion than we have now, and perhaps many more people might be comfortable joining in?"
So, whilst I appreciate you posed the question as rhetorical, you now have an answer.
There are lines. Threats of physical violence - regardless of the fact it's patently obvious they would never actually be delivered - cross them. I acted on this occasion, and if it happens again, I will shut things down. First by turning off all chat and comments, and then by winding things up over time by stopping any further paid subscriptions and renewals, and continuing with the newsletters until the final annual subscription has expired.
I didn't put hundreds (thousands?) of hours of effort into this place for the likes of you and Scott to treat it as your own little private playground for the "dynamic" you bring.
You may well consider my reactions ott, and that is entirely your prerogative. But you're mistaking me for someone who has a consideration for your opinion on the matter.
No I didn’t see those comments, and agree they are ott. Coming from Scott though - what’s the expression, when your housemate uses half the roll each time they go to the toilet you should speak up. But if they use the entire roll you probably should not delve too deep. Latter seems to apply here.
Same for you Gerald. Really close to shutting down the site now over Scott’s comments? Seems a leap. And trying to prove a point by asking me to apparate a certain quality GS by a certain (and rather soon) date? Come on. I’m sure there’s a philosophical name for the fallacy of that argument and proof.
On the plus side, I’m pretty sure H doesn’t care, he’s got better things to do and it’s just a chat thread on a watch Substack.
Btw the chat switching off is way ott too. Seems like it’s something to be taken up with Scott privately rather than a full blown public defense of H followed by immediate closure of chats and a threat to close the Substack too.
So you admit you were completely incorrect to jump to fallacious conclusions having not actually seen the evidence at hand, despite starting out by accusing me of ignorance?
Bit of an overreaction Gerald, you must not follow the chat enough to know that it’s basically just me poking Scott and then Scott shouting at the clouds in earnest. Without that dynamic what would be left! I’ve also bought several watches from Tokei Club and am happy that he’s doing so well. In another thread I actually pointed out his 6186 VFA was a fair or even attractive price at my estimate of 2x watch only (though this SD feels a few multipliers more than that).
Working in financial markets though I do enjoy discussions of pricing and relative value. Particularly versus other watches. Hence I do think it’s a bit of a cop out (discussion-wise) for Gerald to simply cite one other instance of where it’s happened privately (with himself!) and then extrapolate that it’s a fair price. Indeed, if someone new to GS were to ask Gerald for advice on whether he should buy TCC’s or his alien VFA for example, I would argue that Gerald cannot be in an impartial position. He’s too deep in the weeds and in love with it for one, but also a seller/enterpriser now when it comes to vintage GS! That’s why it’s beneficial even to have Scott shouting at clouds and arguing everything is worth 50% of what it is - he himself sells it there!
Indeed, on that point, are all SBGW253s now worth 2k because Scott was happy to let his go there? Not really!
Or if someone said they sold their Hodinkee travel clock at a 3x premium, would you defend that new transaction value of Hodinkee travel clocks to the end? Or like Scott, call it only value in being a shooting target for his now defunct hobby.
Could have sworn I'd turned off the chat, but it seems I neglected to turn off the comments, so I will respond.
It seems I follow the chat just that little more closely than you do. Surely that can be the only explanation for your comments?
Or perhaps you actually do consider comments such as this to be appropriate?
"GS banter is one thing, but you get personal with me and I’ll be out to fuck you up."
"You both have a different perspective. I can be subtle, but I’m going to ragdoll this dismissive fuck."
You think those direct personal and clearly threatening attacks against a fellow subscriber (they certainly weren't aimed at you) - who hadn't even responded to his earlier goading (save for posting emoji reactions) here should be simply dismissed as "banter" and "shouting at the clouds"?
You think it's *beneficial* to this community to allow such behaviour?
Really?
And OF COURSE I'm not impartial, but I absolutely guarantee you this. You have seven days. Deliver to me* by hand another 44GS in the same condition as the one that I sold previously, and I'll put my money where my mouth is and purchase it from you for $39,999, and make a minimum of a dollar profit on it the very next day.
I am this >< close to shutting down this entire endeavour. I do it for the love of it - and yes, it's nice to get some beer money - but I will walk away from it in a heartbeat if shite like this continues, and there are people here who continue to support it.
/edit
(*or, if you need an extra few days, I will be in Singapore on April 16th and can pick it up from you in person)
August 1963 was the month production commenced. It doesn’t really make sense to judge the authenticity of a piece based on that. Until recently, I was strongly of the view that anything past January 1964 should be considered very carefully. Production of the SD dialed 43999 is in my mind proven by examples existing dated in August, October and December 1963 (I’ve never seen one from September or November), and January 1964. I used to be of the view that Jan 64 were potentially dodgy, but have seen sufficient examples now to believe that they *can be* completely legit. I have seen no 43999’s produced in Feb 1964. Now we know of two that - jf they can be believed - date from March 1964. In my mind, that’s not a huge stretch.
I totally respect that others may not agree, but all I ask is that discussion on the matter remains respectful.
Just wanted to throw my hat in here for what it’s worth - I’ve both bought from “H”, and had the pleasure of having a drink with him, and must concur with what Gerald said. His knowledge and passion for all things Seiko (and Citizen, and Orient) are encyclopaedic and infectious. Just so happens he’s also a genuinely top bloke, and a huge asset to this community.
I’m turning off chat until after the weekend. Site wide. As of now.
I apologize for being late to the party. I enjoy Scott’s wits and Texas growl tremendously. I enjoy putting cute emoticons on watch photos. And this Substack is unique in its value.
Opinions are not a crime. Divergent opinions can be exposed in a policed and friendly manner.
At the end of the day we should behave or be banned.
I vote for the return of the chat - and general respect.
Cheers fellow TGSG substackers don’t be suckers
Divergent opinions are more than welcome - encouraged in fact. But people need to police themselves. I have other - considerably more enjoyable and rewarding - things that I can spend my time on, rather than get involved in any moderation whatsoever.
This instance was a one-off, because even following polite requests from me to keep things civil, physical threats were made.
Perhaps my expectations - that everyone here is capable of keeping things civil - are unrealistic. Time will tell. The future of this Substack is solely in the hands of those who contribute to it.
Chat will return on Monday (with all previous discussions restored).
I still have never seen those comments in this thread so can only assume Scott or you deleted them. Can’t hold me to that.
And I mean your watchdb IG is basically dedicated to shouting at the clouds (and continues to do so despite shouting at the IG algorithm cloud and resolving to quit by end 2023), so I find this Al very ironic.
I mean you literally closed off the chat lol hard to read that then isn’t it. Combined with a no censorship mantra, I’d assumed I’d read everything relevant to that point. A fair assumption I think.
So much for progress.
Your assumption is of course objectively invalid because the discussion was here, in comments made on this very post.
It turns out that further comments on posts are not disabled when chat is turned off - my mistake. Chat?/comment? - I thought it was all the same thing as far as that button was concerned, but no. And what a more pleasant a place the discussion would be on this post, were my assumption to have been correct. Mea culpa.
This is getting kinda boring now, but I will close with these few comments -
I never thought I'd have to apply any censorship here - I've let a lot of "banter" go in the past, even to the point of emailing an individual requesting that they remove completely off-topic political commentary themselves because it doesn't belong here, rather than take the action directly myself to delete it.
Quite frankly, when I read this comment from you -
" it’s basically just me poking Scott and then Scott shouting at the clouds in earnest. Without that dynamic what would be left!"
- the very first thing that came to my mind was, "well, it would be a far more mature discussion than we have now, and perhaps many more people might be comfortable joining in?"
So, whilst I appreciate you posed the question as rhetorical, you now have an answer.
There are lines. Threats of physical violence - regardless of the fact it's patently obvious they would never actually be delivered - cross them. I acted on this occasion, and if it happens again, I will shut things down. First by turning off all chat and comments, and then by winding things up over time by stopping any further paid subscriptions and renewals, and continuing with the newsletters until the final annual subscription has expired.
I didn't put hundreds (thousands?) of hours of effort into this place for the likes of you and Scott to treat it as your own little private playground for the "dynamic" you bring.
You may well consider my reactions ott, and that is entirely your prerogative. But you're mistaking me for someone who has a consideration for your opinion on the matter.
No I didn’t see those comments, and agree they are ott. Coming from Scott though - what’s the expression, when your housemate uses half the roll each time they go to the toilet you should speak up. But if they use the entire roll you probably should not delve too deep. Latter seems to apply here.
Same for you Gerald. Really close to shutting down the site now over Scott’s comments? Seems a leap. And trying to prove a point by asking me to apparate a certain quality GS by a certain (and rather soon) date? Come on. I’m sure there’s a philosophical name for the fallacy of that argument and proof.
On the plus side, I’m pretty sure H doesn’t care, he’s got better things to do and it’s just a chat thread on a watch Substack.
Btw the chat switching off is way ott too. Seems like it’s something to be taken up with Scott privately rather than a full blown public defense of H followed by immediate closure of chats and a threat to close the Substack too.
So you admit you were completely incorrect to jump to fallacious conclusions having not actually seen the evidence at hand, despite starting out by accusing me of ignorance?
Progress at last.
Bit of an overreaction Gerald, you must not follow the chat enough to know that it’s basically just me poking Scott and then Scott shouting at the clouds in earnest. Without that dynamic what would be left! I’ve also bought several watches from Tokei Club and am happy that he’s doing so well. In another thread I actually pointed out his 6186 VFA was a fair or even attractive price at my estimate of 2x watch only (though this SD feels a few multipliers more than that).
Working in financial markets though I do enjoy discussions of pricing and relative value. Particularly versus other watches. Hence I do think it’s a bit of a cop out (discussion-wise) for Gerald to simply cite one other instance of where it’s happened privately (with himself!) and then extrapolate that it’s a fair price. Indeed, if someone new to GS were to ask Gerald for advice on whether he should buy TCC’s or his alien VFA for example, I would argue that Gerald cannot be in an impartial position. He’s too deep in the weeds and in love with it for one, but also a seller/enterpriser now when it comes to vintage GS! That’s why it’s beneficial even to have Scott shouting at clouds and arguing everything is worth 50% of what it is - he himself sells it there!
Indeed, on that point, are all SBGW253s now worth 2k because Scott was happy to let his go there? Not really!
Or if someone said they sold their Hodinkee travel clock at a 3x premium, would you defend that new transaction value of Hodinkee travel clocks to the end? Or like Scott, call it only value in being a shooting target for his now defunct hobby.
Could have sworn I'd turned off the chat, but it seems I neglected to turn off the comments, so I will respond.
It seems I follow the chat just that little more closely than you do. Surely that can be the only explanation for your comments?
Or perhaps you actually do consider comments such as this to be appropriate?
"GS banter is one thing, but you get personal with me and I’ll be out to fuck you up."
"You both have a different perspective. I can be subtle, but I’m going to ragdoll this dismissive fuck."
You think those direct personal and clearly threatening attacks against a fellow subscriber (they certainly weren't aimed at you) - who hadn't even responded to his earlier goading (save for posting emoji reactions) here should be simply dismissed as "banter" and "shouting at the clouds"?
You think it's *beneficial* to this community to allow such behaviour?
Really?
And OF COURSE I'm not impartial, but I absolutely guarantee you this. You have seven days. Deliver to me* by hand another 44GS in the same condition as the one that I sold previously, and I'll put my money where my mouth is and purchase it from you for $39,999, and make a minimum of a dollar profit on it the very next day.
I am this >< close to shutting down this entire endeavour. I do it for the love of it - and yes, it's nice to get some beer money - but I will walk away from it in a heartbeat if shite like this continues, and there are people here who continue to support it.
/edit
(*or, if you need an extra few days, I will be in Singapore on April 16th and can pick it up from you in person)
And in any event, March 64 is too distant from August 63 to be a good thing.
August 1963 was the month production commenced. It doesn’t really make sense to judge the authenticity of a piece based on that. Until recently, I was strongly of the view that anything past January 1964 should be considered very carefully. Production of the SD dialed 43999 is in my mind proven by examples existing dated in August, October and December 1963 (I’ve never seen one from September or November), and January 1964. I used to be of the view that Jan 64 were potentially dodgy, but have seen sufficient examples now to believe that they *can be* completely legit. I have seen no 43999’s produced in Feb 1964. Now we know of two that - jf they can be believed - date from March 1964. In my mind, that’s not a huge stretch.
I totally respect that others may not agree, but all I ask is that discussion on the matter remains respectful.
Well, I for one, won’t be licking any boots on this subject.
No one is asking for any boots to be licked, just for some civility 🙏