Nothing you can take from me was ever worth keeping
Nothing you can take from me was ever worth keeping
Introduction
It feels like it’s VFA central around these parts lately!
A couple of weeks ago I featured a rather lovely full set 6186-8000 at The Tokei Club that is still available, and whose price now looks rather more attractive given that the 4580-7000 featured in last week’s newsletter that was listed at online auction site Loupe This closed last night (well, it was last night for me!) for a very respectable $42,351.
This week’s newsletter kicks off with a reference that was featured alongside the 4580-7000 in the first quartet of VFA’s as launched in the 1969 Seiko Special Luxury Catalogue, but is a real outlier with regards the case it is found in.
Given the rather extensive additional research required to cover that listing, I’m somewhat limited for time in detailing too many other recommended watches this week. There are certainly more that might be of interest that are not covered this week, so well worth taking a look through for yourselves if you have the time. If you spot anything and want to discuss it, please do feel free to use either the comment section on this post, or the chat.
Next week is going to be a busy one. Not only will I be listing a couple of rather special watches on Monday (although only selling one of them), but I have the monthly summary newsletter coming as well, so keep a sharp eye on your inboxes, or make sure you have notifications turned on for the Substack App if that’s your prefered delivery method!
As this is the first newsletter of the month, it is being sent to all subscribers, with a paywall after the first listing for those with free subscriptions.
Lucy Gray Baird
Grand Seiko 6185-8021 VFA
First up this week in the (very) good guy’s section is a firm favourite around these parts, but with a couple of ‘interesting’ aspects. One rather minor, one rather major. Oh, and one big warning!
Let’s get the basics out of the way first. The reference is of course the extremely desirable early-dial 6185 with the applied Suwa logo and with no VFA printed on the dial.
The nice surprise with this one - and I’m sure one of the reasons why it has attracted so much attention early on (the auction closes on Saturday in Japan, with bidding currently standing at 1.6M Yen) - is that as we can see in the final photo in the listing, the watch is supplied with its matching-numbers certificate.
Condition-wise, the case looks to be in excellent shape, with the sharp caselines one would expect with this reference, along with clearly defined brushing remaining on the bridge between the lugs. The dial looks to be very clean as well, with no major issues noticeable in the rather low resolution images.
Do note however that the seller is very clear in the description to state that the watch is in “junk” condition, with the movement not functioning properly -
“When you shake it, the needle moves for a moment, but then stops.”
This is of course quite a serious issue when it comes to VFA’s, and any potential purchaser is taking on a big risk assuming that a watchmaker will be able to bring this back to life without having a spare donor movement to raid should the need arise.
Ok, so now onto the ‘interesting’ aspects of the listing.
The minor point is that I do not believe the buckle supplied with the watch is the correct one.
As discussed in the second part of my article on the vintage Grand Seiko buckles, I have seen multiple examples of full set VFA’s, and VFA’s still retaining their original straps, with a different buckle to this. Whilst the front side of the buckle is the same as seen in this example, the underside has a different stamp -
This style of buckle is a lot rarer than the one seen in the listing, although “the market” hasn’t really cottoned on to the significance (or perhaps doesn’t really care!) of the difference.
The “correct” buckle is not impossible to find - they do turn up occasionally on Yahoo (I’ve picked up maybe half a dozen in the last few years) - and it feels to me like there are just too many of them around to have been exclusively used for the VFA’s.
So yeah, it’s a minor point. The key thing is that the design is correct from the side that anyone is ever going to see when the watch is on your wrist, and you have a good chance of a correct one turning up within a few months anyway if it was something that you felt was important.
The more major interesting aspect to this watch is the case reference number, and the production date.
As I’m sure most readers will be aware from my “primer” article on the watches, the reference with this dial was one of the first four VFA’s to be launched in the 1969 Seiko Special Luxury Catalogue. It subsequently made appearances in the second volume of the 1970 regular catalogue, and 1970’s Special Luxury Catalogue.
It was replaced in the range by a watch with a printed Suwa logo and VFA text in place of the applied logo which made its first appearance in the 1972 Seiko catalogue.
What is very confusing however is that we find examples of that (significantly more common) later-dialed variant dating from as early as July 1969, and with cases stamped 6185-8020, 6185-8021, and 6185-8021 G.
And now things are about to get even more confusing.
As can be seen from the caseback and certificate, the serial number of this watch is 170156.
Starting 17, this serial number indicates that the watch was produced in July 1971 - very late for a watch with this dial. Additionally of course, it has the case reference 6185-8021, whereas examples with this dial are almost exclusively found in the earlier case reference 6185-8020.
The earliest example of a -8021 case that I have been able to find is a single outlier dating from October 1970 with the later printed VFA/Suwa logo dial. There is then a batch of -8021 G cases with serial numbers indicating production in March 1971, before the -8021 cases return for a three month period commencing May 1971.
We then flip back to the G suffixed cases with production running from February 1972 through to April 1972, and then finally what seems to be a single last month of production in Feburary 1973.
As mentioned above, all three 6185-8020, 6185-8021, and 6185-8021 G case variants can be found with the later printed VFA/Suwa logo dials.
All three 6185- case variants have also all been used for the reference with the white dial and the long hands.
And now, with this example, I have seen all three case variants used in watches with the original applied Suwa logo/no VFA print dial.
Three different cases, three different dials, all possible combinations have now been seen.
This is by far the latest dated 6185 with the original dial that I have seen and a significant outlier. I have in my collection a 6185-8021 G cased watch from March 1971 that has what I refer to as a “transitional” dial, with both applied Suwa logo and a (large) VFA print pictured below, which is one of just two known examples.
Regarding the outlier presented in this listing, I think given the sheer diversity of these cases and dials over a relatively short period, we just have to accept that it is entirely possible that every combination can exist ‘legitimately’, and there really is no realistic chance of ever getting to the bottom of the ‘why’.
Clearly those bidding on the watch so far are very confident that they will be able to get it up and running again. I know Grand Seiko Japan do service VFA’s, but without knowing exactly what is wrong with the movement in this one, it’s a really tough call to recommend it. Hopefully we will see it up and running one day in someone’s collection!
Grand Seiko 4420-9990
It’s been quite a while since I’ve featured the cap gold variant of the 44GS (it would be a lot easier for me to check when the last one was if I had the reference index article up to date!), and there are always a few people on the look out for one of these.
Unfortunately there is a bit of a risk here as the photography is very poor, with significant areas of the case completely blown out, which means you won’t be able to ascertain any issues hidden in the overexposure. What we can see clearly - the dial and the lower half of the case - appears to be in very good condition, so one would hope that the top half is of similar quality!
The crown is correct (W Seiko in relief) and very worn, which I think always adds a certain amount of charm to a watch.
A bit of a risk for sure, but fingers crossed there are no nasty surprises hiding behind the lighting.
Grand Seiko 1964-0010
Last week’s newsletter featured a rather lovely example of this reference that some lucky soul was able to add to their collection for just 45,500 Yen.
Here we see another one with two days still to go before it closes, and the bidding is already over 50,000 Yen - for rather obvious reasons.
Although the watch is listed as being “dead stock”, I’m not entirely convinced that is the case. Yes, caseback sticker is largely intact and the price ticket is correct, but I don’t believe either the strap or the buckle are original.
Unfortunately as is all too common, the photography of the watch leaves a lot to be desired, and I’d really hesitate to accept that the case truly is unmolested. It’s perfectly acceptable for “dead stock” watches to have dings and scratches from storage (that’s why - to my mind at least - they are described as “dead” and not “new old” stock), but personally I’d far sooner pick up one of these that was well photographed and presented so that you can see exactly what you’re getting, rather than trust images such as the ones we see in this listing.
Still recommended though if you’re prepared to take a little risk, or are happy with your own judgement of the images provided.
Grand Seiko 6146-8010 “Arabesque” with pyramid faceted crystal
As many will know, the pyramid faceted crystal manages to hide itself very well in straight-on shots, and even from some angles can be challenging to spot.
From the first couple of photos in this listing I originally thought that possibly this was an example with the flat service dial, but sure enough on the third photo in the listing -
- the facets reveal themselves, although at a rather offset angle, which you will definitely want to get sorted out!
The photos are rather limited with regards to enabling a proper examination of the case (indeed one potential bidder has already asked for more photos to be provided, and was instructed to email the store since they are unable to add more to the listing), but certainly at this rather superficial level everything looks to be OK.
Note also that the seller describes the watch as “junk” and gives no guarantee that the movement is functional. It is obvious from the photos however that at the very least the second hand moves around the dial, and it is very common for sellers such as this one who shift huge volumes of product (they have over 55,000 listings on Yahoo Japan right now!) to describe everything as junk, just so that they don’t have to go through the legwork of checking just how well a watch is running.
Coriolanus Snow
The first Grand Seiko with black dial
Yes it would be amazing if this was legitimate.
But it isn’t of course. Almost certainly originally coming from a seller who will be featured later, interesting to see one of these resurface.
Grand Seiko 5646-7010
Now relisted for the third time, and making it’s fourth appearance I guess this guy is just not happy with the prices the auctions are making, which is rather odd considering when originally sold it went for 201,000 Yen, and then in the last two auctions for it we can see it achieving bids of 268,000 Yen and 201,000 Yen.
Makes me wonder whether the seller here is simply shilling his own auctions, and hoping to finally catch someone out.
Run a mile.
The first Grand Seiko in stainless steel
From the same guy with the black dialed first Grand Seiko above, here he is again with yet another listing for a faked up stainless steel first Grand Seiko.
One thing that is probably worth highlighting here is that the print is relatively recent, and the fakers are getting better. Take a look -
Note that this seller also has some legitimate (although in rather poor condition) loose dials for the first Grand Seiko up for grabs this week.
Redone coloured dial summary
I close with the usual reminder to steer clear of any vintage Grand Seikos with coloured dials similar to the above. This is not a comprehensive photo - there are many references that get this “treatment”, so be careful out there.
See you all on Monday.
I rather suspect everyone has worked out what’s coming by now!
Hi Gerald, on that VFA with matching papers, could it be possible that someone swapped in a desirable early applied Suwa logo (no-VFA) dial (perhaps from an earlier case that was in bad shape) into a later dated case (in good shape AND with matching papers) in hopes of enhancing its desirability? Similar to how some Print print dials were swapped into later dated First cases. Just a thought on such a possibility.
Only one short hands of interest out there at this time. The 6185 8021 transitional pictured