You're not the man I knew ten years ago.
It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage.
Introduction
Tick tock, tick tock… busy week, quiet week, busy week, quiet week…
The trend shows no sign of abating, with quite a lot of ground to cover this week. Plenty of watches for your consideration, and if you’ve been after a box for your vintage Grand Seiko, there’s a whole section dedicated just to those!
Indiana Jones
Grand Seiko 6145-8000 cross-hair dial
Although the case has clearly had some “buffing” to soften out some old dings and scratches, at least any refinishing has been done with sympathy to the original caselines, with the lugs still well defined and showing relatively sharp edges.
The dial looks to be close to immaculate, and it seems collectors these days do place quite a premium on this particular variant of the 6145-8000, so I suspect there will be some interest in the last few minutes of the auction tomorrow evening Tokyo time.
Grand Seiko 6146-8000
Staying with the 614x-8000 series, next up is the standard dialed 6146 variant, and whilst - compared to the previous watch - it may be lacking somewhat in the desirability department, it more than makes up for it with the condition in which it is presented.
The description states that the watch has had a complete service, claims that the case is unpolished, and mentions that the watch has been fitted with a NOS crystal.
On the no-polishing claim, and judging by the provided photos, I’m certainly inclined to take the seller at his word. Obviously over time the watch would have had some gentle polishing just as a result from careful ownership and wiping clean with a cloth, but certainly there is not the slightest hint of any attempt to refinish the case.
The very fine scratches highlighted by the hard lighting in the above photo are exactly what one would hope to see on an unpolished case facet, and there is simply no arguing with the sharpness of the caselines. It’s well worth taking a little time to compare the case condition with the cross dial one above - it shows the difference between what could probably be considered an 80th percentile case, and a 98-99th percentile one.
The dial is in super condition, with just a very minor spot just below and to the right of its center that you’d barely notice on the wrist.
One of the nicest 6146-8000’s to turn up in quite some time, and if you’ve been holding out for a good example of this classic reference, now’s the time to take the plunge!
Not the only listing from this seller that will be featured this week…
Grand Seiko 4420-9000 early dial
It seems that with pretty much every example of the late dial 44GS that turns up, there is always something that prevents the watch listed from achieving true “greatness”.
Here, the only real disappointment is the slight degradation around the posts that secure the applied Seiko and GS logos to the dial.
From the photos provided looks to me as if the case has had just the gentlest of work done on it, but it’s right up there with about as good as you could hope to find without paying a significant multiple of what this will probably end up closing for.
When it comes to an iconic reference such as the 44GS, the market is significantly wider than that for the more “normal” references. Those who collect vintage Grand Seiko will happily build up a collection of perhaps anything from three to twenty (or more!) watches over the course of a few years, and of course a 44GS is going to be a core watch in those collections.
However, for those who are not hardcore vintage Grand Seiko collectors, but feel the need to have just a single reference to add to their wider collections of (typically) the big Swiss brands, it’s the 44GS that they gravitate to above all others (save, perhaps, for a VFA).
This has the effect of stretching the value/condition curve substantially. And that, combined with the extreme rarity of the truly great examples, means that a watch such as this one that has a relatively minor issue, will end up hammering for probably half what it would achieve were those marks on the dial around the applied posts not there.
Grand Seiko 43999 SD dial
![[fns] 1円～ Grand Seiko グランドセイコー クロノメーター メンズ 手巻き 腕時計 43999 Cal.430 セカンドモデル 初期型 35石](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!Trrw!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F716a38be-2184-4b88-b558-da12e08696c0_597x464.jpeg "[fns] 1円～ Grand Seiko グランドセイコー クロノメーター メンズ 手巻き 腕時計 43999 Cal.430 セカンドモデル 初期型 35石")
Frustratingly low resolution images on this listing, so it’s really tough to make a good assessment of the condition of the watch - especially the case.
From what we can see however, at least everything checks out OK. Original dial (yes - it’s possible to tell even at this low resolution) which appears to be very clean, correct crown, October 1963 manufacture, and a 430 movement with a serial number starting with a 3.
Don’t know about you, but I reckon quite a few people are going to look at that photo and think to themselves - “hmm, ok so it’s not particularly clear, but that case could turn out to be really good.”
Grand Seiko 6145-8000
![[Rare 61GS Mechanical] SEIKO GS Grand Seiko HI-BEAT 36000 Ref.6145-8000 Automatic Volume SS Date Antique Men's Watch "22095"](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!g24a!,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1b76889d-a074-4e27-acbe-89342998d72c_960x960.jpeg "[Rare 61GS Mechanical] SEIKO GS Grand Seiko HI-BEAT 36000 Ref.6145-8000 Automatic Volume SS Date Antique Men's Watch \"22095\"")
No prizes for guessing why I’ve included this one - you know I like my honestly patinated dials.
Rare on a 61GS - these are far more commonly found on the 564x-7010’s - this is just gorgeous to my eyes.
The case isn’t superb, but it’s certainly well above average for the reference.
What’s not to love?!
Grand Seiko 6145-8000 cross-hair dial
Ok so this is the second of these this week. Had it had more bids on it than the one at the top of the newsletter (and hence, had I seen it first), then that leading one wouldn’t have been featured this week. But I’ve written it up already, so no sense in deleting.
The case on this one is clearly in better condition, so I’d encourage you to chase this one down if you are after one of these, and prepare for a bigger fight than there will be for the earlier example I featured.
It will be interesting to see the comparative results on these two auctions.
Grand Seiko 6146-8000 (what I think to be a) service case
Included more out of curiousity than anything else - it’s not exactly in the kind of condition one would hope to find a service case in.
But can anyone tell me why I believe it’s a service case?
Additionally, anyone got any ideas about that peculiar inside case back? Here’s the one from a few weeks ago for comparison…
I have a bizarre theory of my own, but very interested to hear what others think!
OK that’s it for this week for the good guys. I could have sworn that earlier in the week I added to my YJ watchlist a VFA listed by the seller who always posts just four photos in their listings, but that seems to have disappeared. Either that, or I’m now dreaming of going through new listings!
Boxes
Oh wait - that’s not quite everything for this week is it? I promised you a box section, because there’s never been a week quite like this one for vintage Grand Seiko boxes.
So here it is!
There are so many, I’m going to skip the descriptions - click through to the listings to check them out in more detail and assess the quality. Watch out for the premiums that people will pay for those listings that include the outer box…
One last thing before we dive in, a little caveat on the descriptions -
Firstly, I refer to the standard GS box that doesn’t have Hi-Beat 36000 on the inner lid as being for the 56GS. There is a valid case to be made that this box actually replaced the Hi-Beat 36000 one for regular watches from the 61GS and 45GS series on the introduction of the 56GS (in a phased manner).
Having said that, if your (regular) 61GS or 45GS was made in the 1960’s 1970/1, I would always err very strongly indeed on the side of caution and assume the Hi Beat 36000 box is the correct one for your reference. If it was made from 1971 onwards, then take your pick.
Secondly, I’ve not checked the dimensions (if given) on any of the listed boxes. The box for the 19GS is extremely difficult to tell apart from that for the 56GS in pictures. For reference sake, here are the dimensions for the two inner boxes -
19GS - 156mm x 96mm x 41mm
56GS - 173mm x 107mm x 41mm
Inner box for 57GS
Inner box for 56GS
Inner box for 56GS (no tray)
Inner box for the first Grand Seiko
Inner box for 56GS
Inner box for 56GS
Inner box for 56GS
Inner and outer boxes for 56GS
Inner and outer boxes for 61GS/45GS
Inner box for 61GS/45GS
Inner box for 56GS
Inner and outer boxes for 61GS/45GS
Inner and outer boxes for 61GS/45GS
Inner and outer boxes for 56GS
Inner and outer boxes for 56GS
Inner box for 57GS
And in going through the boxes from my Yahoo saved items, I rediscovered the listing for…
Grand Seiko 6186-8000 VFA
Aha! Here it is. Good to know I wasn’t hallucinating afterall.
Ok so the reason I didn’t come across it earlier in the newsletter is because for some reason the seller has listed it in the “Seiko>Others” category, and not the “Seiko>Grand Seiko” one.
Obviously there are a few issues with here, but it’s a VFA, so it gets a feature.
I’ll leave you to make your own assessment to decide whether to have a punt at it or not.
René Belloq
Grand Seiko 5646-7040
From the same seller as the 6146-8000 above comes this seemingly lovely example of the intriguing 5646-7040. But there’s a catch.
The case isn’t in nearly as good condition as that of the earlier featured watch, although the bezel looks to be very good. The dial - which can often show signs of degradation around the periphery on this reference - is in superb shape (and I must say, very nicely photographed!).
The problem presents itself when you turn the watch over -
Sadly at some point in its history this watch has lost its original caseback, which has been replaced with one from a 5646-7011.
How that impacts the value of the watch is basically down to the perception of the bidder. For some, I suspect it won’t be a huge turnoff, and they might see this as an opportunity to pick up a fascinating reference from the vintage back catalogue, that once on the wrist, nobody would ever know there was an issue with.
Others of course will just walk away.
If you’re in the former camp, a great opportunity to pick one of these up, and I guess one possible idea might be to replace that incorrect caseback with an aftermarket see-through one.
Grand Seiko 43999 SD dial full set
Here’s a familiar listing that was featured in the newsletter a couple of weeks ago.
Given the fact two weeks have passed between listings, I rather suspect the winning bidder the first time around received the watch, realised he’d been duped, and sent it back demanding a refund.
This time around, the seller has added the following text to the description -
“* Please consider it as an accessory because the number such as guarantee is different from the exhibited individual.
The box and instruction manual alone are considered to be valuable items, so please consider them.”
There’s still lots more wrong here though - check out the details in the earlier newsletter linked above.
The first Grand Seiko with, err, some sort of dial
Obviously no-one is going to fall for this one, but I had to include it just to immortalize it in your inboxes forever!
Hoping this one will stay under 80,000 Yen so I can pick it up just for parts!
Just love the addendum to the description that the seller made yesterday evening -
“It is the late type of the first.”
Grand Seiko “6146-8050”
Making its third appearance in the newsletters is this bizarre Frankenstein, which on the last two occasions closed for around 100,000 Yen, and then the top bidder’s bids were cancelled. I won’t waste any more words on it!
Redone coloured dial summary
I close with the usual reminder to steer clear of any vintage Grand Seikos with coloured dials similar to the above. This is not a comprehensive photo - there are many references that get this “treatment” so be careful out there!
6186 8000
Don’t do it. You’ll be looking for the next greatest fool within a month
Also, that exact same 43999 SD dial had been featured in your newsletter from two weeks ago I believe. Seems like it got relisted for some reason.